I'm Dr. Tim Shu, I make medical cannabis for animals. Pets can also benefit from cannabis, AMA!

What are some long term side effects if any?

Great question. CBD is the primary component of products made for animals. There have been a number of studies observing animal models being administered CBD at varying doses, using various routes of administration at short and long term intervals and the conclusion is that CBD has a wide margin of safety. Our experience reflects the same conclusion. However more pharmacokinetic and clinical studies are warranted to fully elucidate the interaction of cannabinoids within various species. We're starting to get a good understanding of the endocannabinoid system and we need more studies to better understand it, as we're just scratching the surface.

Okay. I've got to ask.

How on earth did you get into this profession? And what were family/friend's opinions on it? Personally think it's a fantastic idea but I can't imagine "I'm making animal weed" went down well! :D

The way medicine is practiced today is not the same as it was 50 years ago, or even 10 years ago. The reason is because it's improving, and better options and therapies are available. The way medicine is practiced tomorrow will not be the way it's practiced today, it will improve. It is up to us to push for those improvements. If cannabis has therapeutic potential, we have a moral and ethical obligation to our patients and clients to thoroughly evaluate that potential.

Edit: When I first started the company, many people thought it was a crazy idea, some still do. But we as humans didn't get to where we are now by being content with the status quo.

What makes cannabis more effective than other drugs (with regards to pets)? Why does it prove an advantage over drug company prescriptions? Negative side effects?

Cannabinoid therapy can be very safe with minimal side effects when formulated and dosed properly. Although not common, potential side effects of diarrhea or sedation are possible. When it comes to treating pain, especially chronic pain, such as arthritis in cats, we don't have many good options and opioids are not good options for chronic pain. This is where cannabis has been a life-saver for many pets. It's also important to understand that many disease processes require multimodal therapy, and cannabis may be just one component of treatment.

Thanks for the response! How does it compare to NSAIDs as far as arthritis goes?

Thanks for the question! The concern many owners have with NSAIDs is the potential for serious adverse effects, especially when used long term, as is the case for conditions with chronic pain like arthritis. Kidney damage, liver damage, or GI ulceration are possibilities when it comes to NSAIDs and long term treatment.

How long do you think it will be before the majority (I guess greater than 90%) of vets prescribe CBD for pain and anxiety rather than trazadone and tramadol? All of my friends’ vets prescribe these medications and question CBD, acting like it’s straight weed.

Well there's always going to be a place for traditional pharmaceuticals. I don't view cannabinoid therapy as a replacement for anything, instead I view it as an additional treatment option for certain conditions, sometimes used in conjunction with other modalities. We often have to take a multi-modal approach to conditions such as chronic pain. Think of it as an additional tool in the toolkit, because no treatment is going to work 100% of the time for 100% of the patients.

Having said that, I think within 5-10 years, discussion of cannabinoid therapeutics like CBD will be commonplace in veterinary offices. We were just at a conference and spoke to hundreds of veterinary professionals from across the country. Over 90% of the vets have clients inquiring about CBD/cannabis on a daily to weekly basis, and more vets are eager to learn about the therapeutic potential of cannabis. It's only a matter of time.

Our dog died last year from having seizure after seizure one night. It was horrible to witness. I only learned recently about cannabis and it’s affect on seizures. He had one every two to three months, which did not warrant medication. Could cannabis have saved him? Or can you speak a bit about seizures in pets and cannabis helping with that?

I'm really sorry to hear about your dog's passing. My first dog had to be euthanized due to cluster seizures as well, so I know how traumatic that can be. It was why I became a veterinarian. While cannabis has the potential to decrease seizure frequency and/or intensity, it's also important to realize a lot of it depends on the underlying cause. Seizures can be caused by a number of reasons. Epilepsy, while common, is only one of them. For other causes like brain tumors or endocrine disorders, cannabis won't be of much help.

Have you or anyone in your field researched the effect of a "tolerance" buildup to CBD's in response to repeated dosing (e.g. "overuse" for many seizures in a short amount of time)? Does the body (human or animal) reach a "saturation" point at which more CBD's becomes useless?

That's a great question and one that needs more study. We know in humans that chronic THC consumption leads to downregulation of CB1 receptors and causes tolerance. CBD tolerance is less clear. There are some anecdotal reports of CBD tolerance, but for many humans and pet owners tolerance using CBD has not been an issue. Many of our clients' pets have been using it for years without issue. One thing to consider is disease progression. Sometimes disease progression can be confused for tolerance. Nonetheless it's an area that needs further study.

Edit: wording.

Can you link some primary literature that has shown cannibinoids provide healing to animals? I don't doubt it, I'm just interested in the methodology of the studies.

Here is a short list to start with. It's important to note that the large majority of studies out there showing therapeutic benefits of cannabinoids were first established in preclinical studies using animal models. While double blind placebo controlled studies in animals are less common (mostly due to the difficulty of approval and funding to study a Schedule I substance), they are needed, and the good news is that more and more universities are starting such studies.

Edit: MOAR literature

Seizures 1,2,3,4,5

Anxiety 1,2,3,4,5

Pain, Arthritis 1,2,3,4

Nausea 1,2,3

Inflammation 1,2,3,4

Neuroprotection 1,2,3,4

Edit: Can't forget Cornell University's double blind, placebo-controlled study in dogs that found cannabinoids to be "efficacious for pain in dogs with osteoarthritis, chronic joint pain and geriatric pain and soreness; with dramatic beneficial effects in our more geriatric patients."

Thank you!

Here and here is some actual scientific evidence that isn't trying to sell you something.

Edit: Notice how OP doesn't quote a single paper conducted in dogs or cats? CBD appears to be working for treating a couple deliberately provoked diseases in lab mice and rats, but that's where the evidence ends.

This guy posts a bunch of scientific articles from a variety of sources as evidence of the beneficial effects of cannabinoids in animals, and everyone including you posting evidence to the contrary are only sourcing skeptvet...

I would like to point out that the author of the SkeptVet blog is Dr. Brennen McKenzie, who gave a great lecture on cannabis and pets at Western Veterinary Conference last week. The lecture room was packed beyond capacity and his lecture was very well-rounded, balanced, and rational. He does great work and we really enjoyed his lecture.

In what ways, if any, can it benefit animals with arthritis?

Arthritis is one of the most common reasons for cannabis use in animals. Cannabis can be effective for not only the chronic pain associated with arthritis but also the inflammation. Cats with arthritis can benefit greatly because there are a general lack of options when it comes to treating cats for pain. Opioids are not good chronic pain options and cats tend to be much more sensitive to drugs like NSAIDs.

How long does it usually take to start seeing results with CBD? My dog was recently diagnosed with arthristis and a torn ACL, but the pain medication the vet gave him made him sick and refuse to eat. I'd like to try this as an alternative.

I'm sorry to hear your pup isn't feeling well. First and foremost, when it comes to any changes in your dog's regimen always discuss it with your veterinarian. There can be other factors involved that are not evident and your vet is the best person to guide you through this process. When it comes to treating pain, multi-modal therapy is often employed, and cannabis and CBD may be just one element. Modalities such as physical rehab, swimming, or using a water treadmill can be very helpful in addition to medication. Also not being overweight is important as that lessens the load on the joints. Neutraceuticals like glucosamine and chondroitin may also be of benefit.

Typical time to response that we see with cannabis or CBD is 24-48 hours. However this can vary due to individual variability and condition. So again, your veterinarian will be the best person to consult with. I hope your pup starts feeling better soon!

What scientific studies support your claim that animals benefit from cannabis / CBD? Could you explain a little about dosage as it is not clear for people who will try this on their own (I fear people will attempt to give animals human dosage)?

Most of the preclinical studies done since the 1960's have demonstrated therapeutic benefits of cannabinoids through animal models. More veterinary schools are conducting clinical trials to better establish that connection using double blind placebo controlled studies, and some of the results should be out soon.

You're right that dosing is key, and people should not try to guess on dosage or use human cannabis products because animals are much more sensitive to THC (this is where proper formulation is key), and owners can cause more harm than good by guessing on dosage or using products not intended for animals. Dosing is based on weight but may vary based on condition and a patient's individual response.

Great. I saw some of the references on your website. Any chance you can provide actual links to some of the most important ones?

Sure, I'll provide a few, let me know if you're interested in more.

Seizures 1,2,3,4,5

Anxiety 1,2,3,4,5

Pain, Arthritis 1,2,3,4

Nausea 1,2,3

Inflammation 1,2,3,4

Neuroprotection 1,2,3,4

Edit: Can't forget Cornell University's double blind, placebo-controlled study in dogs that found cannabinoids to be "efficacious for pain in dogs with osteoarthritis, chronic joint pain and geriatric pain and soreness; with dramatic beneficial effects in our more geriatric patients."

Hi Dr Shu, I am a veterinarian working in SA ER/ICU on the east coast. I would be interested in trying your product specifically for treating hospital anxiety, especially for post operative orthopedic procedures, separation anxiety, and young GSDs (lol). Do you have any anecdotal experience on how the effect compares to trazodone? This is currently our go-to anxietolytic of choice.

My second question would be what effect, if any does your product have on appetite? Current appetite stimulants like mirtazapine, cyproheptadine, and even Entyce have an unpredictable and unreliable response. If your product could be incorporated into a multi-modal analgesia protocol and stimulate appetite there is definitely a huge market in the ICU (pancreatitis, trauma, post operative nausea and pain, etc)!

If you are ever in need of a east coast or Midwest representative, DM me.

Hey doctor, thanks for doing what you do. I worked ER/ICU for 3 years and it gets brutal at times. Although there were also plenty of slow nights spent refreshing the front page of reddit :) Our anecdotal experience when it comes to trazodone vs cannabis is just that - anecdotal. We've had owners report that they switched to cannabis because it lacked the side effects their pet was experiencing compared to trazodone. However we don't hear about the owners that successfully use it without issue.

We do use it for nausea control and have clients that successfully use it for appetite stimulation, primarily in renal failure patients that don't respond to traditional appetite stimulants like the ones you mentioned. I do agree with you that cannabinoid therapeutics will play a large role in multi-modal treatment protocols in veterinary medicine very soon.

Why do you think there is a stigma against cannabis in the veterinarian community?

There's a number of reasons but it boils down to education. The discovery of the endocannabinoid system (ECS) is fairly recent, and it still isn't being taught in veterinary schools, so veterinarians have little to no knowledge of the ECS, endocannabinoids, or phytocannabinoids. For most veterinarians the only exposure to cannabis is in toxicology courses (for THC toxicosis) or when clients bring in pets that have ingested human cannabis products (again THC toxicosis). But just over the past few years the conversations among veterinarians has been rapidly growing towards acceptance of cannabis as a potential treatment modality.

Hello and thank you for your continued work in this somewhat burgeoning field. My question is this: What is the difference in medical cannabis for animals versus humans? Does it come down to weight being proportional to dosage?

The biggest differences are formulation and dosing. Animals are much more sensitive to THC, so the primary component of cannabis products made for animals is CBD. THC can still be safely utilized therapeutically but needs to be done so at specific ratios of CBD:THC to prevent psychoactivity and adverse effects associated with THC. Dosing is the other crucial element, as their sizes can vary greatly, so the dose must be tailored to their size and need.

My boxer has cancer, and apparently it flew under the radar for years. He's almost 12 do surgery isn't an option. The cancer gives him upset tummy...and the vet suggested Prednisone but I would have to take him back for blood work every 6 months due to the effects it could have on major organs. the CBD oil helps so much. Helps him eat and it's liquid so it's not difficult to get down him when he doesn't want to eat.

The only downfall is the cost. It can be pretty expensive for a 70 pound dog.

I'm sorry to hear about your pup's cancer diagnosis. Were they able to determine the type of cancer? More and more owners are approaching their veterinarians about the use of cannabis and CBD, and many have changed their stance on it after seeing the results in their clients' animals. I know several veterinarians who have changed their stance on cannabis after seeing positive results with their own pets. Have you discussed CBD with your veterinarian?

I have. They said it's worth a shot and it won't do any harm, but they said don't expect a lot from it. Most the the veterinarians in our area are pretty conventional when it comes to cannabis. They said he has a mast cell tumor, so it causes allergic/anaphylaxic reactions. He has has been taken to the vet for years for situations where he suddenly can't breathe. The emergency vets and my vet never suspected cancer. They finally got to the point where they said just give him Benadryl when it happens. Now that the tumor finally showed itself ( it grew between two flaps in his ear where it went unnoticed) all the dots finally connected. The CBD oil helps his acid reflux, and he's able to eat better. Most days he gets around great, he's been a great pup and we cherish these days we have left.

I'm glad to hear that CBD has been providing him some relief. It's all about improving quality of life, every day is important. Please give him a hug for me :)

It's good to hear the vets in your area have an open mindset about cannabis. If you don't mind me asking, what part of the country are you in (PM me if you don't want to post publicly)? After speaking to hundreds of vets from around the country, a lot of the vets in legalized states have a very open mindset about it, but even in a lot of the more conservative states vets are wanting to learn more. I was just at Western Veterinary Conference, one of the largest gatherings of veterinary professionals in the world, and there were multiple lectures on cannabis use in animals. Each lecture was filled to capacity and had to use overflow rooms to accommodate all the attendees. It's pretty amazing to watch history unfold.

Does it effect various species differently ?

There are differences among species in regards to how the endocannabinoid system is mapped out. For example in dogs they have the highest concentration of CB1 receptors in their cerebellum, so they can be more sensitive to CB1 agonists like THC. However that's not to say that THC can't be utilized for therapeutic benefit. It can, it just has to be using the proper formulation and dose.

Would cannabis be effective in helping a cat with breast cancer?

There's potential, but the truth is we don't know how much. More studies need to be done when it comes to cannabis and cancer. We know that it can help with pain and nausea associated with cancer, and some preclinical studies have shown cannabinoids inducing tumor cell death. But it's important to keep in mind that different cancers will respond differently to therapy. What's the best ratio of CBD:THC and at what dose? How much of a role do minor cannabinoids and terpenes play in cancer therapy? We don't know yet.

Having said that, we've seen some interesting results when it comes to cancer and cannabis. I've seen tumor reduction and remission in a number of cases and some of our clients' pets have lived well beyond their vet's expectations. Many of my associates in the industry have reported very promising results, but this is all anecdotal evidence, and we need more clinical trials to better establish guidelines.

How does smoking around our pets effect them? Should this not be done around them?

Smoke inhalation can be harmful to our pets lungs and airways, and some species can be very sensitive to smoke, such as birds. Smoking of any sort (cannabis or tobacco) should never be done around pets.

Thank you for answering. My cat usually leaves when I smoke anyway. Wondering if I should really start kicking her out of rooms when she persists.

Feline asthma is a very real and very heartbreaking condition. Keep kitty away from the smoke. And for your own health, maybe invest in a Volcano :)

Question:

What about livestock (i.e. poultry, cattle, porcine, etc,) Would it be safe to use on farm animals?

Great question, there is a lot of potential in that area, but we need to do more R&D with farm animals. We do have some clients that use it for their pet birds and pet pigs, but cattle, goats, sheep, etc are an area that we'll be looking into soon.

With the lack of FDA oversight and approval, what measures do you take to ensure your product meets certain quality standards? Is it produced in a facility compliant with CGMP or NSF standards? How do customers verify claimed CBD content?

The states have taken the lead in those areas. Third party lab testing is key. Here in California's cannabis industry, every batch of product must be tested for potency, pesticides, residual solvents, and microbials.

Producers and manufacturers are licensed by the state and must abide by the standards set by the California Bureau of Cannabis Control.

What's to stop people from using the cannabis themselves?

I see you've been getting some heat for this question, but you're coming from a good place, and I want to thank you for contributing to the conversation. If people want to use it for themselves, nothing's going to prevent them from doing so. Our products are human-grade but are formulated and dosed specifically for animals and their sizes. As with any medication, dosing and formulation are key, so it's important for people to use products that are best suited to their needs.

Is there an additional benefit to THC vs using just CBD’s? I use HempRx for my dog with arthritis along with other supplements. What is your opinion of the hempRx? Thanks for doing this ama!

The theory behind the synergistic effects of using multiple cannabinoids has been gaining traction. Dr. Ethan Russo has done a lot of work and research in this area. It's important to remember that animals are more sensitive to THC, so proper formulation and dosing are key to avoiding potential side effects.

Although I don't have personal experience with HempRx, it's formulated by Dr. Rob Silver who is a leading researcher and advocate for cannabinoid therapy in animals, so you have the added assurance that they are formulated by a well-respected veterinarian.

Was this a U of R study?

University of... Rochester? No, but Cornell University did a double blind, placebo-controlled study that showed cannabinoids to be "efficacious for pain in dogs with osteoarthritis, chronic joint pain and geriatric pain and soreness; with dramatic beneficial effects in our more geriatric patients."

In which cases wouldn't cannabis be recommended, besides allergies?

Allergies and cannabinoids are actually an area of active study. There was a study in dogs published in 2012 indicating cannabinoids may help with allergies via their immunomodulatory effects. This study concluded that "our results give a new insight into the existence of the endocannabinoid system in the skin of healthy and AD dogs, supporting the hypothesis of their auto-protective role against skin inflammation." Another study took a look at available literature and concluded a "promising role for cannabinoids in several eczematous dermatoses and pruritus exists, and dermatologists are already implementing cannabinoid therapy into their practices." On our end we've had some very positive outcomes using cannabinoid therapy for dogs with skin allergies, but more work remains to be done in that area.

Having said all that, it's much easier to look at where cannabis may be of benefit, rather than the other way around, because by no means should it be considered a cure-all, or silver bullet. Cannabis may be beneficial for the following conditions (keep in mind formulation and dosing are crucial): pain, anxiety, inflammatory conditions (potentially autoimmune and allergy disorders), nausea, appetite loss, as a neuroprotectant, cognitive dysfunction, seizures, tremors/spasticity.

Edit: link formatting

In regards to behavior what are some of the positives/negatives with CBD? I work with lots of rescue dogs that have so many different behavioral issues (anxiety, aggression, etc)

We're fortunate to be able to work with a number of rescue groups here in California, and they've had a lot of success using it for anxiety without issues. It should also be noted that they utilize behavioral training along with the cannabis. Some of the rescues specialize in senior animals and use it for canine cognitive dysfunction.

Hi Dr. Shu!

Our dog does very well with CBD pet products, but I have to say that yours is BY FAR the best on our local market (Sacramento).

Our little guy has luxating patellas and severe anxiety. Your product has been amazing!

My question:

How do you deal with the stigma and reluctance from pet owners and convince them to give it a try? My in-laws have geriatric dogs and one of them is getting pretty senile. They gave her melatonin and it made things worse. They refuse to even try your product because they think it will freak her out.

Thanks!

I'm glad we've been able to help your pup! I was just in Sacramento a few weeks ago, great city and great vibe, looks a lot different from when I was last there a few years ago.

Education is the biggest factor when it comes to tackling the myths and biases surrounding cannabis. When it comes to any treatment modality, the evaluation of risk vs benefit is key. When properly formulated and dosed, cannabis can have great therapeutic potential with minimal potential side effects, and should be evaluated in that regard, independent of stereotypes or biases.

One of my dogs is 16, and I use it for her arthritis and senility. When she's not receiving her daily dose she will get up in the middle of the night and aimlessly pace. More studies are coming out showing the therapeutic potential of cannabis and cognitive dysfunction, so it's something that can be considered as cognitive dysfunction/dementia is not an uncommon finding in senior dogs.

What are the laws surrounding the use of cannabis on animals?

There are no laws regarding the use of cannabis on animals, however the veterinary boards that oversee the profession have stated that veterinarians are not allowed to recommend or incorporate cannabis into their practice in any way. Some have gone as far as to say that veterinarians are not even allowed to discuss cannabis. If they do so they risk penalties or revocation of their license to practice. This is unfortunate because it prevents veterinarians from being the primary source of medical information for their clients. Moreover, this does not prevent clients from pursuing cannabinoid therapy for their pets on their own, as pet owners will often do whatever they can to improve their pet's quality of life. As a result many clients find information from secondary sources, which can be misleading, inaccurate, or simply false.

AB 2215 aims to allow for California veterinarians to discuss and recommend cannabinoid therapy, restoring their role as the primary source of their clients' medical advice.

Do you own and cultivate the farm your flower is grown on? Are there any plans on expanding outside of the California market?

We partner with farms to source our flower. We will eventually look to markets outside of California.

Do you use whole plant? What are your extraction methods?

We source our cannabinoids from full spectrum CBD-rich strains like ACDC, Ringo's Gift, Suzy Q, Harle-Tsu, Swiss Tsu. Extraction is via CO2.

My dog just recently got diagnosed with lymphoma. The vets recommend chemo but they're saying it won't cure him but instead just give him some more time. I work at a smoke shop, we sell CBD and I've asked some friends about this, they're smart but not experts and my vet refuses to say anything about it. I was curious if there is a difference between the CBD products advertised for pets as opposed to the tinctures and terpene oils (we carry alot my green roads) that you'd see at smoke shops?

I'm sorry to hear about your pup's diagnosis. Cancer is terrible, and I hope you get to spend lots of quality time with your good boye. There is a difference when it comes to CBD products, as the CBD products sold outside of cannabis dispensaries are hemp-based and usually contain CBD as a sole cannabinoid. Full spectrum CBD-rich cannabis products contain multiple cannabinoids, such as CBC, CBG, and trace amounts of THC. Different cannabinoids have different mechanisms of action and thus achieve therapeutic benefits using different routes. For example in some tumor cells there's an overexpression of CB1 receptors, and there is preclinical evidence that CB1 activation in these tumor cells can lead to cell death. CBD has weak affinity for CB1, but THC has strong affinity for CB1. When we utilize THC we use it in a ratio with CBD and we use low enough levels that the CBD counteracts any potential psychoactivity. That's not to say that CBD as a sole cannabinoid lacks potential therapeutic benefit, it simply means that the evidence is pointing to multiple cannabinoids being more efficacious. The Entourage Effect is a popular term used to describe the synergism of multi-cannabinoid therapy.

My dog is currently taking CBD oil for his anxiety. He is deaf and has a lot of issues including shadow chasing, random spouts of aggression, constant licking himself, and resource guarding.

We had him on prosac for awhile but it doesn't do the trick. The cbd oil does work for him but we can't give it to him like candy when it's $300 for 2000 mg.

Have you heard of any success stories using cbd alongside anti anxiety/depressant medication?

That's a great question. Most of our clients use cannabis as a single modality of treatment for their pets' anxiety due to the side effects of many anti-anxiety drugs. However, multi-modal therapy may be necessary for better control of a lot of conditions (either due to efficacy or cost). We don't have as much data in regards to concurrent treatment using CBD and benzos, SSRIs, or TCAs, so it's an area that needs further exploration and research.

Was the dog in Road Trip an inspiration for this?

I've never seen the movie, so I'll have to say no.

The inspiration came from a number of sources. My oldest dog has severe arthritis in her elbows, knees, and hips, and I wanted to explore all possible options to improve her quality of life in the safest manner possible.

Another inspiration was Dr. Doug Kramer, founder of Companion Cannabis, one of the first veterinarians to advocate for the use of cannabis in animals. Sadly he passed away a few years ago. He was an inspiration to me, and he is missed.

That’s a much more inspiring story than a dog who took a hit and got the munchies.

Thank you! Here's a gif of one of my favorite creatures, the octopus.

Are humans the only animals who act "high" when on cannabis. If not what are the side effects of animals

It's important to note that not all cannabis produces a "high" or psychoactivity. CBD is a major cannabinoid that does not produce psychoactive effects. Many high-CBD strains can be considered non-psychoactive because their THC content is so low (this is where the line between hemp and CBD-rich cannabis can get blurred, but that's another discussion). Psychoactivity is induced by overstimulation of CB1 receptors. This can happens when animals ingest too much THC. In animals clinical signs of THC toxicosis can manifest in the form of difficulty balancing and walking, nausea, anxiety, tremors, or abnormal heart rate. Animals in general are more sensitive to CB1 agonists like THC, which is why proper formulation and dosing are crucial for safe and effective use of cannabis.

Whenever I sit down to smoke pot, my 13 year old dog will wobble up to me and plop down at my feet and play with his ears. He sniffs and sneezes when it's the good stuff. Can he just breath in my exhales and get the weed effect?

That is very much not recommended as smoke inhalation can be harmful to their lungs and airways. Additionally, if the cannabis you're smoking is THC dominant and not CBD dominant, he may get adverse effects from the THC. Proper formulation using CBD as the primary component and proper dosing are key!